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This transcript has been edited for clarity and space.
Michael Bird
Hi. I’m Mike Bird, Deputy Principal and Lecturer in New Testament at Ridley College in Melbourne, Australia.
David Capes
Dr. Mike Bird, good to see you. Welcome back to The Stone Chapel Podcast.
Michael Bird
Good to see you, David, and hello to all my friends in Houston.
David Capes
We’ve got to get you back here to Houston. We’ve got to figure out a way to do that sooner rather than later.
You and Tom Wright have written a terrific book titled Jesus and the Powers. The subtitle is Christian Political Witness in an Age of Totalitarian Terror and Dysfunctional Democracies. A little bit of alliteration there for us.
It’s a serious book. It’s a book of political theology. It’s a book that takes seriously where we are historically at this moment, which is a very combustible time. This is what Nicholas Wolterstorff says about it. He’s a professor at Yale.
I know of no other book that comes even close to locating so insightfully and in such rich detail, Christian political activity within the context of the coming of the kingdom.
That’s high praise.
Michael Bird
Yes, we got some good endorsements from Nicholas Wolterstorff, Miroslav Volf, and others. There were some really good blurbs for the book. I was kind of blown away, not just by who they got to do the blurbs, but the very flattering and glowing things that the endorsers had to say about it.
David Capes
Well, I think part of it is, everybody senses that we’re living at this really difficult time historically with what’s happening in foreign policy, international news. And what’s happening domestically in a lot of countries, particularly in the West. We’re more aware of that than things that are happening in a lot of places. I think it’s touched a nerve, as you would describe it. What’s the big idea of your book?
Michael Bird
The idea of the book is to get Christians to start thinking biblically and theologically about the relationship between the church and the state. And to think about how we do public theology, advocate our views in the public square, often for a common good. How to do that in light of a Christian worldview, in light of Christian creedal commitments, without simply going to your de facto political view, and trying to provide it with some religious capital. So that’s what the book is about, how to think biblically about Christianity and politics.
David Capes
One of the big categories that you guys tackle early on is the idea of the Kingdom of God and that relationship. How would you define the kingdom?
Michael Bird
I would use an Australian definition of the kingdom of God, one that goes back to Graham Goldsworthy that the kingdom of God is God’s reign over God’s people in God’s appointed place. I would define it that way. Now, you could say it even shorter than that. You could say the kingdom of God is the coming of God to be king. To be the king who delivers, renews and saves his people and brings them into the final place, the Kingdom at the end of the age. That’s the kind of way I would want to define the kingdom. The real challenge, I guess, is what the kingdom means for us now, and how do we build for the Kingdom? How do we prepare and anticipate the kingdom of God in all its fullness?
David Capes
A lot of times Western Christians that I’ve been associated with think of basically getting the heck out of here. They think about death as being an exit. They think about the Second Coming of Jesus being an exit and praying for that day, hoping for that day. As opposed to what I hear Jesus saying and what I hear now you articulating, the idea that the kingdom of God is the renewal, the restoration, the new creation that really comes from heaven to earth as God’s will is done on earth as it is in heaven.
Michael Bird
That’s exactly right. That’s what we pray in the Lord’s Prayer: “Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven.” And although we cannot manufacture the kingdom for ourselves, we can’t say just one election where it goes the right way, or one violent purge of all the people standing in our way, or just get all of the country converted, baptized and enrolled to vote, and everything will be fine. We cannot
manufacture the kingdom by our own efforts.
Ultimately, it’s God who brings God’s kingdom, but we can anticipate it. We can prepare for it. We can set up little billboards advertising what it looks like. And when we bring people into a redemptive relationship with Jesus, when they make Jesus not just king of their heart, but king of their whole life, that’s bringing the saving power of the kingdom to someone.
When we’re able to stop the gambling lobby, the gambling cartel from exploiting people by turning them into cattle, to be driven into gambling addiction, I think we’re doing Kingdom work. When we establish Bible study groups on a university campus where people are studying the scriptures that point to Jesus and reach the point of faith and living out that faith, that is a kingdom work. When we build a hospital or a health clinic in a poor neighborhood or in a third world country or in the developing world, I believe that is Kingdom work because it’s anticipating the good things that are still to come.
David Capes
I think that’s a creative way to think of it. Now, Jesus says something toward the end of his life and is often quoted from the Gospel of John. I’m curious what your thoughts are when he says, my kingdom is not of this world. Some people have taken that as simply to say, well, the kingdom is for another time, another place, another galaxy, far, far away. You and Tom together. How do you guys interpret that particular phrase? What does it mean?
Michael Bird
This is one of Tom Wright’s pet peeves. He hates it when people say, oh, well, the church should keep its nose out of politics and just preach the gospel. Stop trying to save the world. Because, you know, Jesus said my kingdom is not of this world. So rather than trying to clean the goldfish bowl, you just got to get the fish into the proper bowl, which will be in the new heavens and new earth. And Tom’s got a response to that. He points out, well, yeah, the kingdom is not of this world, but the kingdom is for this world. And that’s why Jesus came, and that’s why Jesus was already showing the signs of the kingdom’s presence.
Jesus says, “If I cast out demons by the Spirit of God or by the finger of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. “(Luke 11:20: cf. Matt 12:28). So, when Jesus engages in his works of healing or exorcism or the various things he does to help people who are oppressed or are in dire need or are suffering, then that kingdom power is expressed. The kingdom is already breaking in and burgeoning in our own world. We have the incipient presence of the kingdom because of the presence of the King himself coming to save and heal his people. Now that’s only the first installment. There is a second installment of this. You know the day when God is all in all and Christ hands the kingdom to the Father, but the kingdom is not of this world, but it’s definitely for this world. And the ministry of Jesus, through
the power of the Spirit, is what proves it.
David Capes
I joke with you a lot of times when I need to know what’s happening in America. I turn to Mike Bird, because it seems like you absorb the news and help interpret the news to me, better than just about anybody. And here you are living in Australia talking about news in America. What do you see happening in the West that gives you the most pause right now?
